problem

[magg]

I did explain in xivlia's earlier post how a faulty ignition control unit could cause starter motor "jamming" issues but others simply dismissed the idea. Over-advanced ignition timing can cause all sorts of interesting outcomes but that's just my opinion. Too bad you did not keep the offending unit, I would have been interested in testing it.

[CRM]

I did explain in xivlia's earlier post how a faulty ignition control unit could cause starter motor "jamming" issues but others simply dismissed the idea. Over-advanced ignition timing can cause all sorts of interesting outcomes but that's just my opinion. Too bad you did not keep the offending unit, I would have been interested in testing it.

eh - tell me how ? removing the unit makes not one scrap of difference to the cranking cycle. so regardless of where the ignition fires, how does that have a bearing on the starter motor ? or even more interesting how would it cause it to jam ?
only possibility on this one would be a flooded motor and a hydraulic lock perhaps (had one on my VJ23 that was down to a shit suzuki fuel tap)

sorry but that to me sounds less credible than the fox piss incident. but please elaborate i would love to learn something new and explore another possibility.

[magg]

Over-advanced ignition timing that fires while the engine is cranking causes the engine to kick back and tries to rotate the starter motor in the reverse direction. Result would appear as though the starter motor has jammed. Also could damage the starter clutch if repeated often enough I suspect, as it is the sandwich in the middle between the engine kick-back and the driving starter motor. Broken starter clutch was also one of xivlia,s problems as I remember.

Kick-back has been responsible for broken kick starter gears, not to mention what it does to the kickee's ankle. A 70-80s Yamaha mx ignitions had a reputation for just such an issue. Problem was that the start retard function in the CDI would fail and leave the timing at run advance setting.

[porndoguk]

Over-advanced ignition timing that fires while the engine is cranking causes the engine to kick back and tries to rotate the starter motor in the reverse direction. Result would appear as though the starter motor has jammed. Also could damage the starter clutch if repeated often enough I suspect, as it is the sandwich in the middle between the engine kick-back and the driving starter motor. Broken starter clutch was also one of xivlia,s problems as I remember.

Kick-back has been responsible for broken kick starter gears, not to mention what it does to the kickee's ankle. A 70-80s Yamaha mx ignitions had a reputation for just such an issue. Problem was that the start retard function in the CDI would fail and leave the timing at run advance setting.

+1 that makes good sence,

[Neosophist]

While that may seem to sound convincing it still sounds about as credible as fox piss.

It's strung together but in a very conspiracy theory-esq style. Picking things that seem to corrolate to make the story sound plausible.

While I'm not saying that the above isnt possible, I don't think that is what is happening on this bike.

The original issue was the bike was running but sometimes `jamming`

How do you explain that it was so intermittet and didnt have any advese effect on the bike once it was running? The ignition on these bikes is of TCI design so solid state driven by pickups.

If the ignition unit had failed and was providing full advance, surely it wouldnt run fine.


The trouble is many things were knackered / faulty and hes changed a lot including the original starter clutch and starter motor (and still had issues!)

carbs were leaking (possiblly causing hydraulic lock) which can also damage the starter clutch / motor.

The battery is up and down along with the electrics so perhaps there was just a bad current drain somewhere.

I dont think its possible to find the real cause anymore, espeically since he has binned the igntiion box. I wish you would have sent it me.

And as I said a million times before, the easiest way to test it is to get somebody with a known faultless running bike to try it on their machine and see what they get, if you posted it to me id try it for you.

Your bike still has issues seomtimes like the other day when it didnt work.. perhaps it was just the battery being dead from being used a lot, but what if that ignition box works fine in another bike? Bad wire / plug somewhere?

Seems strange how it died all of a sudden after you started messing with it.

If the box really was dead I reckon that with all that shitty wiring floating around in the back at the time that there was a short circuit that killed it.

Ive never seen a Honda ignition unit from a vfr400 die of natural causes, actaully never anything other than electrical fault.

[CRM]

interesting, but i thought there was a limit to how far advance could go. its also not like the old days with points where you could bump a bike backwards.

I will also say in all my years now and 400's owned never ever have i seen a CDI that fails like this. not saying it's impossible, but in my experience they either work or don't and never have i seen symptoms to cause anything like mechanical damage in that manner.

The starter sprag if i recall was not damaged until it was taken apart as you know where they often tend to explode into pieces if not disassembled with utmost care. not that i saying Ersan perhaps did not take as much care as required, but there is a fair chance the sprag was actually in a working condition before it was challenged with ersans tool kit*











FBH = fookin big hammer

[magg]

Neo, as I remember the sequence of events, the starter clutch and starter motor were changed and the jamming issue remained, xivlia reported that it stopped "jamming" after he changed the ignition unit. Yes he had leaking carbies but I believe he still had them after he changed the ignition unit and yet he was no longer complaining of starter jamming.

My original post in the starter jamming saga said the ignition unit could perhaps have an intermittent over-advance fault, thus the bike could have run ok at times but then play-up, just as reported by xivlia.

What relevance is

The ignition on these bikes is of TCI design so solid state driven by pickups.

What is a natural causes failure? All electrical faults are failures in my book.

CRM, a faulty ignition unit can pick any timing point it likes. The starter clutch was damaged before xivlia removed it, it was slipping. The rollers were in pieces, even our friend xivlia could not cause that much damage during dis-assembly. Broken kick start gears is fairly dramatic damage.

Electronics can have many failure modes.

We can agree to disagree and move on to other problems.

[Neosophist]

Neo, as I remember the sequence of events, the starter clutch and starter motor were changed and the jamming issue remained, xivlia reported that it stopped "jamming" after he changed the ignition unit. Yes he had leaking carbies but I believe he still had them after he changed the ignition unit and yet he was no longer complaining of starter jamming.

My original post in the starter jamming saga said the ignition unit could perhaps have an intermittent over-advance fault, thus the bike could have run ok at times but then play-up, just as reported by xivlia.

What relevance is

The ignition on these bikes is of TCI design so solid state driven by pickups.

What is a natural causes failure? All electrical faults are failures in my book.

CRM, a faulty ignition unit can pick any timing point it likes. The starter clutch was damaged before xivlia removed it, it was slipping. The rollers were in pieces, even our friend xivlia could not cause that much damage during dis-assembly. Broken kick start gears is fairly dramatic damage.

Electronics can have many failure modes.

We can agree to disagree and move on to other problems.

You seem to be changing the subject a little here and walking away.

Firstly, I will clarify what I meant by the term natural causes as it probably is a bit of a msinomer.

I mean the faliure of a logic chip or other component that wasnt directly caused by a short circuit (through bad wiring or generator / regulator issue) as an example by excessive heat. They are very sturdy boxes.

The main issue / flaw I see with your post is that when the bike was originally running, even though it would sometimes jam and not start it did run ok. If the unit had failed like you said, even intermittently (which I can only attest to a bad connection) then surely there should be some severe running issues not just the starting problem.

[magg]

Xivlia's bike had running and starting issues that could have been a result of an intermittent fault within the ignition unit. Start, idling and low engine speed are the times when IMHO excessive advance would be an issue that should have the most effect and which had some relevance to the problems xivlia was having . Once running at high engine speed the ignition timing is advancing anyway so any inadvertent over-advance would not necessarily be noticed by a rider, who was perhaps a little insensitivity to the operation of the engine. The internal electronics of the ignition units is complex and therefore capable of complex fault modes. The best very sturdy boxes fail, only takes one internal component or dry joint.

The nature of the starter clutch failure was raised by CRM as proof that an ignition timing problem was not the cause. I simply indicated that the starter clutch was faulty before dis-assembly by xivlia and that the damage was consistent with repeated kick-back overload.

Not walking away just recognizing that we have differing opinions as to cause and effect.

[xivlia]

okay, so having read all of this, i can tell you that i DID change the started clutch as the rollers in it was totally smashed to bits. i would suspect that happend BECAUSE of sudden jammings and clonking noises when trying to start the bike up. however i did NOT buy a new started motor. i was going to... but i did not. whether the jamming was caused by hydro-lock or CDI, it doesnt matter because the CDI was still faulty because of the fact that the bike would cut out while riding at high speeds. and i mean cut-out as in the ignition would stop, but the light ad stuff would still still operate. and it would not start again..ever! thats when the CDI i think was completely dead. a random guy on the street helped me toe the bike back to mine.. how nice.

i changed the to new CDI and the fuel tap at the same time, if i remember correctly... so the fix to the jamming could be either.

and i disassembled the starter clutch the way its meant to be... i followed the haynes manual so im pretty sure i did not damage anything...

and to confirm my point, after installing the new CDI and firing up the bike with no problems. i went and changed it back, and nothing... 0 spark, it just cranked and cranked....and i changed back, and voila it worked again.