ethanol fuel - NC30 compatibility

[AdrenalineJunky]

Hello there

I have been reading about this new 10% ethanol unleaded ("E10") that is soon going to be introduced and eventually replace the current 0%-to-5% unleaded. Older vehicles and those with carbs can be FUBARed by this petrol, because parts in their fuel system are degraded by the ethanol. Yorkshire Motorcycle Action Group have a statement on it here: http://www.yorkshire-mag.co.uk/ethanol.html

Apparently, Honda have said that all their motorbike engines post-1993 can run on E10 just fine. But there seems little information available on which, if any, pre-1993 Hondas can deal with this stuff without extensive (and expensive) modifications to the fuel system, carbs, and maybe even valves. I have called my nearest Honda dealership but they had no specific information.

So if anyone has any information about whether or not my beloved NC30 can run on this ethanol-blend fuel, or about any mods I might have to make to enable it to do so, please let me know. Cheers!

[speedy231278]

And not only that, if they're not supplying 100% petrol and have replaced it with something else that is presumably cheaper, should the price not be reduced?

[thunderace]

You'd be surprised at how long there has been ethanol in pump fuel, several years now. The doom and gloom attached to this is another urban myth. Yes it will shorten the lifespan on fuel hoses but that's about it and not by any noticeable amount worth worrying about if you replace rubber hoses every 8 years as most manufacturers recommended back then.

Oh, and I seriously doubt there'll be any price reductions.

[AdrenalineJunky]

thunderace you are right that there is currently ethanol in most 95-unleaded fuels, but it is legally restricted to 5% maximum content since anything higher tends to cause major problems very quickly. A new EU Directive is coming in end of next next year (2013) which will enable up to 10% ethanol-blend fuels to be sold everywhere.

Like it says on the MAG site, "it is widely accepted that vehicles ten years old and older will not be compatible with E10 blends, though of course there will be exceptions to this. There are approximately nine million petrol passenger cars and light duty petrol vehicles in the UK that are ten years old or older, which equates to about 38% of the total petrol vehicle population. In addition, approximately ¾ million powered two wheelers (PTWs) may also be incompatible with E10 fuel. It is not only classic and vintage vehicles that may be affected, as thousands of relatively new first generation petrol direct injection vehicles in the UK, the last new vehicle probably being sold as late as 2007, are also not compatible with E10.

The resultant problems for vehicles not compatible with E10 include:
· Fuel filter blockage and increased wear of fuel system components: Ethanol acts as a solvent loosening abrasive deposits
· Galvanic corrosion: Ethanol is more highly conductive compared to hydrocarbons leading to corrosion if electrically dissimilar metals are present in the fuel system
· Air/Fuel mixture problems: Ethanol contains about 35% oxygen, so the air/fuel mixture has to be adjusted otherwise the vehicle will run lean which could cause drive-ability problems and overheating
· Drive-ability: E10 blends can be more volatile, causing hot problems (poor hot starting, hesitation etc) and cold weather problems (vaporisation problems)
· Deposit formation: Inlet system and combustion chamber deposits have been reported with the use of E5 and E10 blends compared to E0.
· Material compatibility: Some materials used in fuel system components are less compatible with ethanol in fuel resulting in loss of structural integrity, swelling and softening of materials (some older glass-fibre petrol tanks and tank sealants will melt).
· Ethanol holds more dissolved water and associated impurities leading to corrosion of metallic components.

In addition to increased maintenance & reduced vehicle life, possible catastrophic failure (fuel fires due to leaking hoses, piston seizure etc), could actually directly result in driver / rider fatalities."


I just spoke to my local Honda dealership and the chief mechanic told me he didn't have any detailed info on the NC30 engine and E10 fuels, but basically advised against using anything higher than E5. I've emailed Honda Technical Support.

On another note I see that E10 has been sold in France for a while now, so if anyone on here runs an NC30 in France, have you got experience with this fuel? Does it turn the engine to merde or is thunderace right and it's no problem really?

[NGneer]

E10 is widely for sale out here in Germany, but from what I can gather a lot of the Germans are very sceptical/cynical about it having detrimental effects on motors as well. As such it is not very popular - however it is slightly cheaper, though I suspect that is in a bid to convert people .

I can't speak from experience as (a) I have no bikes out here and (b) I only use the standard unleaded, or the super duper stuff in the R32

[Morespeedvicar]

I cant see it making that much differance personally. the only things it may or may not effect are the fuel hoses and the floats, but i very much doubt it somehow even at 10% its still not significant to do much damage. and i would of thought that new fuel pipe would be safe against it. I know alcohol can affect grp (but so does boiling water) but dont think thats gonna be much of a problem for us.
Cheers
Ian

[Dynamohum]

What exactly is the reason for ethanol in pump fuel. Is it to satisfy the green brigade or another way of adding to the obscene profits of the oil companies allowing them to enhance a lower cheaper to them cost of refinement by adding this stuff?

[racerbengan]

Petrol, or what we call gasoline today is something entirely different then that we used 25 years ago. But it dont need  to be negative all times.
Here in Sweden we have four types 95 98 and V-Power (from Shell) and E85.
I'm a huge fan of real racing fuel but who can afford to drive it on the road.
Now the the interesting, if you are testing a bit with E85 and get the carburetor setup correctly, you will have access to 104 octane fuel at the most petrol stations. An engine that runs on ethanol runs much cooler then one that runs on gasoline. Prices are significantly lower then for petrol but there is always a downside.
Ethanol contains significantly less energy then gasoline does, which means that consumption increases (E85 provides about 30% higher) and the service interval is shorter (more fuel goes into the oil)
But it is a beloved fuel of car tuners with turbos .... Our home-built Volvo 940 Turbo was running on the street for many years and produced around 450hp.
So if only carburetor parts can take it, it might be an option for high compresion and ignition on the road or on the track at a reasonable cost.

[spenceley1]

I read something in a motorcycle magazine a little while ago, can't source it for you but basically they done a big article on eternal and had peoples commentary and i distinctly remember one guy had a pan European 98'ish, said he put half a tank in of E10 and honestly thought his engine was going to blow before he got home, got home, drained the rest and never used again... Kind of stuck with me for some reason, and for the sake of a few pence a litre i'd rather be on the safe side! :)

[Dynamohum]

Anyone remember formula shell from the mid eighties?

A mate and I both filled our gpz750a3 s with this magic potion whilst out a run and both bikes started pinking shortly after. Shell got sued by the police for fuckd engines in their vauxhall cars at the time then it mysteriously disappeared from shell forecourts.