Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

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lknbandit400
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Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by lknbandit400 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:41 am

I picked up a GSF400 tank that's apparently a California model. None of my other tanks have this, but on the bottom it has a second barb that apparently goes to a fuel vapor separator.

How does this purge canister system work? I imagine that it's not gonna pour fuel if I don't hook it up to any hoses right? If so I guess I can fill the tube with RTV and be done with it.

Curious of the purpose more than anything.

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willandrip
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by willandrip » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:38 am

In Cali (Arnietown) the emission controls are very stringent.
Manufactures had to adapt existing models to pass the legislation to sell vehicles in that state.
In adverts you often see descriptions stating "other 49 states" to verify that something has not been adapted to pass Californian law.

The FZR 600 for example had to have an Exup valve and extra piping in the exhaust fitted to pass.

The carbon filter trap is to catch fumes from the tank exiting through the filler cap breather.
They are caught in the top of the tank and are exited through the carbon filter supposedly preventing them from reaching the atmosphere. The filter would be replaced at a certain service interval, safely disposed of and replaced with an empty new unit.

Yes...just blank it off.
However...For that trap to work..the tank filler cap must have been modified to fully seal or the filter system would not be effective.
This will mean that there is no way for the tank to breath and the fuel will eventually stop providing fuel.
You may need to test this and modify the seal.

I am pretty sure a similar system was also fitted to some ZXR Kwaks.
A red box doth not a Snap On make.

lknbandit400
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Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by lknbandit400 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:11 pm

willandrip wrote:In Cali (Arnietown) the emission controls are very stringent.
Manufactures had to adapt existing models to pass the legislation to sell vehicles in that state.
In adverts you often see descriptions stating "other 49 states" to verify that something has not been adapted to pass Californian law.

The FZR 600 for example had to have an Exup valve and extra piping in the exhaust fitted to pass.

The carbon filter trap is to catch fumes from the tank exiting through the filler cap breather.
They are caught in the top of the tank and are exited through the carbon filter supposedly preventing them from reaching the atmosphere. The filter would be replaced at a certain service interval, safely disposed of and replaced with an empty new unit.

Yes...just blank it off.
However...For that trap to work..the tank filler cap must have been modified to fully seal or the filter system would not be effective.
This will mean that there is no way for the tank to breath and the fuel will eventually stop providing fuel.
You may need to test this and modify the seal.

I am pretty sure a similar system was also fitted to some ZXR Kwaks.
Thanks for all the information. The cap I'm installing is from a non-California tank. I would imagine that the provisions needed for venting on a non-California tank are already in place so swapping that onto this California tank should be the ticket, correct?

Everything else on the tank is exactly the same around the filler neck so if a normal tank vents with this cap that I have then I suppose I should be good to go. I bought a tank that looked better off of eBay and it just so happened to be a California version. I'll be swapping my non-California tank cap and latch onto it.


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willandrip
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by willandrip » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:25 pm

Yes; the venting will be in your original cap.

Might be a good thing to compare caps and post up results if any noticeable differences.
The question has AFAIK never been raised BUT; someone somewhere will have capped off the breather on their bike before and then found the tank airlocked and the bike ran badly but did not realise why !
A red box doth not a Snap On make.

lknbandit400
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by lknbandit400 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:05 pm

willandrip wrote:Yes; the venting will be in your original cap.

Might be a good thing to compare caps and post up results if any noticeable differences.
The question has AFAIK never been raised BUT; someone somewhere will have capped off the breather on their bike before and then found the tank airlocked and the bike ran badly but did not realise why !
I'm happy to post up pics of the bottom of the tank but unfortunately it didn't come with a cap - tank only. I'll post up pics of my cap then if someone has a Cali model we can compare.

Instead of permanently plugging the barb I think I'm gonna plug a short run of tubing then hose clamp the open end to the barn on the tank.

The good news is that I know the bike ran great before removing the tank and fairings so if I install this new tank and can't get fuel, I'll know why. Then I'll put up an Antares Red tank up for sale on the forum lol.


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willandrip
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by willandrip » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:45 pm

You can just see someone.s post on a forum somewhere ;

"I just bought a tank cap...the seller already sold the tank to someone else, I fitted the tank cap now my bike runs out of fuel/airlocks."

Lol.
A red box doth not a Snap On make.

lknbandit400
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by lknbandit400 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:47 am

willandrip wrote:You can just see someone.s post on a forum somewhere ;

"I just bought a tank cap...the seller already sold the tank to someone else, I fitted the tank cap now my bike runs out of fuel/airlocks."

Lol.
Ha, yeah somewhere out there, there's a poor soul scratching his head for sure.


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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by lknbandit400 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:36 pm

Well, an update: when the bike starts, it runs fantastic. Will pull to redline and seemingly has no fuel delivery issues. Getting it started is a different story. It will crank and turn over with the starter for forever and won't fire. However, I can bump it off effortlessly every single time. I've never had an instance when it won't bump off. The carbs are clean. Didn't have this issue with the other tank.

I'm running a Pingel fuel valve and don't think flow is the issue. I'll validate that tonight.

Stupid Cali tank I suppose. I've tried to open the gas cap for 5-10 seconds before starting to make sure it's not venting issues. Doesn't seem to really help.

Any ideas how the fuel vapor separator may be causing this?


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willandrip
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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by willandrip » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:16 pm

I don't think it is the tank..only a coincidence.
What I do think is the spark plug lead wires are corroded at the ends where they enter the caps or the coil.
The cranking is using every available amp and only just sufficient is left to fire the ignition.
If the leads are faulty in any way then spark is too weak to fire the plugs.
This is why the bike fires straight up when push started.... its getting full power to ignition circuit and plugs.

Easily confirmed by leaving all 4 plugs in but adding spare plugs to leads and observing spark..
A red box doth not a Snap On make.

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Re: Purge/Surge Hose Canister System Cali Model GSF400

Post by SevenThreeSeven » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:46 am

I'm in agreement with willandrip. I think your problem is an ignition system that needs attention.

The GSF400 ignition control (a.k.a. the CDI Box) does not compensate for low amperage, it is an old-school "dumb" system.

Today's modern car and motorcycle ignition systems constantly sense the voltage available in the vehicle's electrical system. If the voltage in the system is low the ignition system will compensate by increasing the Dwell-time on the coils.

Extra info, just in case you're interested: Dwell-time is the length of time that power is allowed to flow through the primary windings of the coil. Every coil has a particular Dwell-time that allows it to reach "saturation". Saturation is a fully charged state for the coil, any further charging of the coil after saturation is reached will cause overheating in the coil windings.

It doesn't surprise me that your bike push-starts really well. When you do this you aren't using the engine's starter motor which is a heavy draw on the electrical system. So instead of experiencing a really low system voltage, like 8 volts, you're still sitting at 12 volts (good, healthy resting battery voltage). The difference in coil charging with 12 volts instead of 8 volts is huge (which, again, is why modern cars and motorcycles have systems that compensate for low voltage situations by increasing the coil Dwell-time).

Here are my suggestions:

1. Do what willandrip suggested. Make sure the bike's high tension leads (the spark plug wires) are in top condition.

2. Because you have a U.S. model Bandit the headlight comes on the moment you key-switch the bike to "On". That means you've got that huge headlight draining volts while you're thumbing the starter motor. In case you don't know this the U.S. version of the GSF400 is the only version of the bike that has the headlight wired this way, every other version has a headlight On-Off switch on the right handlebar. I searched around for a solution to this ridiculous voltage drain and I found that some of the early fuel injected Triumph motorcycles had similar issues and the solution was provided by FastEddy Sports. FastEddy makes what they call a "Headlight Control Module" which is plug-and-play. It keeps the headlight off until you've started the bike and you flick the headlight switch to "bright". Here's the website: https://www.fasteddysports.com/products ... uct_id=882. Only $32.00


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