How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

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fzrtim
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How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:18 am

As my old thread on the old pb forum is no longer viewable i have decided to do a detailed step by step thread on how to fit a 600 motor into the 3tj as i and a few others have. This is not the only way to do it, but it is how i did it.
I used parts from the fzr600r. Im told the thundercat parts can be used but they may differ slightly from the fzr. For instance ,the thundercat has a throttle position sensor so you may have to use the full electric loom ect from the thundercat where as i managed with only the following parts.
Firstly the parts you will need:-
1- A 600 motor from a fzr600r or thundercat
2- CDI unit to suit the engine (and plugs from the loom)
3- Exhaust system
4- Carbs
5- Engine adapter mounting plates / bolts
6- 600 choke cable
7- 520 chain/sprockets 14/45 (428 chain could be used, might not last long)
The rad can be reused from the 400. If you have a rrsp then its straight forward but if you have the rr then you have to make some provion for the oil cooler. I did this by making a 'T' piece. More on that later.
No mods have to be made to the frame other than the fitting of the adapter plates as the cylinders are longer on the 600. I have seen some frames drilled to bolt the engines in place but this is illiminated by using the brackets.
I reused the standard air box, modifying it to fit the 600 carbs but you can also use pod filters as others have.
I used the exhaust system again from the 600r and only had to slightly modify it by bending it near the rear shocker link rods. This was simply done by heating it up with oxy/acetiline and forming to shape.
The 600 cdi is grafted into the the 400 loom using the plugs from the 600 loom. The complete 600 electrics can be used, if so a mod has to be made to allow for the fuel sender/ pump being different.
So assuming you have all the parts you require on with the project!
Fitting the engine
Assuming of coarse you have removed the old 400 lump and rad ect.
The 2 rear crancase mounts on the 600 lump are the same as on the 400. Offer the engine into the frame and put the 2 bolts in but do not tighten them up yet. You may notice at this point that the engine sits closer to the frame at 1 side. When the spacer/ adapter plates are fitted and all the bolts are tightened it all squares up nicely.(*** I have been informed that fitting in this method mounts the engine ever so slightly out of square with the frame. Although there seem to be no adverse efeects from fitting in the method i am currently finding ways to counter the offset. It will basically involve machining the thickness of the left hand plate off the 2 cylinder mounts on the left hand side of the engine***)
Remove the top rear engine bolt and pivot the engine forward to allow the adapter plates to be fitted. The bolts holes in the cylinder are m10 fine thread. I had difficulty in finding some m10 fine thread coutersunk set screws and opted to use normal m10 countersunk set screws and retapped the cylinder holes. With this all done the plate can be mounted.
Image
By twaudby, shot with PDR2300 at 2007-07-18
Last edited by fzrtim on Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by viper_biker » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:49 pm

Stickied as requested.
Ducati 916, not worth a carrott

fzrtim
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:55 pm

Fitting the plates.
Image
The plate you can see here is a finished one. The ones i make come only with the top holes drilled and countersunk. This is to ensure a much more accurate fit.
With the engine tipped forward, the blank plates are fitted to the engine as above. The engine then needs to be tipped back and the rear top bolt fitted. There will be a little end float movement in the rear mounts. The rear bolts need to be tightened with the engine in the mid position of the end float.
Image
The plates can now accurately be marked ready to be drilled. The use of a 10mm drill bit in the holes should mark the plates in the centres. Be sure to mark both plates before they are removed for drilling and tapping.
Now the rear bolts need to be loosened (the top one removed) and the engine tilted forward again to remove the plates to be drilled/tapped/painted. Before they are removed be sure to mark the plates left and right. The blank plates are identicle (only for ease of manf) but when they are drilled they will only line up at one side.
Image
With the plates drilled/tapped to m10 and painted they can be fitted to the engine and the engine finally mounted into the frame. (I painted mine with aluminium paint which helps make it all look standard!)
Image
Engine fitted!
Last edited by fzrtim on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Alex.
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by Alex. » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:22 pm

Hi Tim,

When I was fitting my engine, with your lovely plates, I found that removing the side stand and bracket allowed the engine to pivot forward a lot more and the side of the engine was free and easy for plate fitment.

I then used a trolley jack to lift the engine up and down.

Alex.
All of a sudden I found myself in love with the world,
so there was only one thing that I could do,
was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long!

fzrtim
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:35 pm

Thanks Alex. Thats a good point about the stand. As i only intended my bike for the track the stand was removed before i fitted the engine. Didn't realise that it restricted the pivot!

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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:08 am

The cooling system
As previously mentioned there are a few options here. The rad from the 400rr or sp can be used or you can use the one from the 600. The main differences are that both the 400rrsp and the 600 have a port in the rad for the oil cooler that runs through the oil filter housing. The 400rr does not have an oil cooler so the rad is missing a port.
It would have been easier to have used the sp or 600 rad but at the time i could only find an rr rad (sp rads can be expensive as they are getting rare) so i opted to use the standard rad.
I found that the rad would mount up on the original mounts but the fan frame slightly fouled the front of the cylinder head.
I had heard that other people had had this problem and opted to remove the fan but i wanted to keep it.
A slight modification to the fan frame cured the problem.
Image
I had to grind away a small bit of the fan mount just under the motor as you can see above. I found that this made the rad fit spot on.
Slight modifications had to be made to the hoses as they didnt quite fit. I found that if i turned some of the original hoses upside down the curves of the hoses worked a lot better.
This only left one problem with using the rr rad. The pipe exiting the oil cooler. I made a 'T' piece to join the pipe. The short hose from the left hand side of the rad was moved over to the thermostat housing to join the 'T' to the other hose.
Image
The 'T' was made using 22mm copper pipe with a 10mm pipe drilled and soldered in place. This was only a tempory measure but it is still in use and seems to work fine. (If using the sp or 600 rad the 'T' is not required)
You can see in the picture above that the hoses are routed slightly different from standard but when the fairing is fitted they are nicely out of site.
The 400 rad seems to keep the engine cool ok. I have given mine several good thrashing around the track this year, a couple on very hot days (though i cant remember many nice days this summer) and have not had any overheating probs.
Image
Last edited by fzrtim on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Evilchicken0
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by Evilchicken0 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:57 am

So the oil cooler has coolant running in it then ???
Did you use an oil cooler or simply trust it wouldn't overheat ???

fzrtim
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:14 pm

Evilchicken0 wrote:So the oil cooler has coolant running in it then ???
Did you use an oil cooler or simply trust it wouldn't overheat ???
Just to clarify this the oil cooler on the 600 is on the oil filter housing and has coolant running through it. It is a manifold type oil cooler not a rad type one.
The pipe exiting the cooler enters the 'T' on my system which is on the 'hot' return pipe. As the oil cooler coolant returns to the rad and is fed from the waterpump i see no reason why it should over heat.

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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:08 pm

The exhaust
As I am aware there are 2 types of exhaust for the 600. 1 with a 50mm exit from the headers and 1 with a 42mm exit pipe. I used the later. I think this was the size of the standard pipe fitted to the 600s whereas after market pipes such as micron were 50mm. Headers from the thundercat or fzr600r can be used, i have my suspicions that they may even be the same as the can i fitted is a scorpion and the box was labled for both models. The headers i used were from the fzr600r. Just make sure the can link pipe is the same dimension as the exit pipe of the headers! (I found this out the hard way!) I have heard that other people have had problems with the headers touching the radiator (not sure which headers they used) but mine cleared the rad fine.
Fitting the exhaust was quite straight forward. First the mounting bracket underneith the engine had to be removed as it was in the wrong position to be used. When the headers were offered up to the engine it became apparant that they fouled on the suspension relay arm. So they had to be modified slightly to fit by heating them up with oxy/acetaline and formed into the shape required.
Image
The pipes were slowly bent untill i was happy with how the can fitted.
Image
Then its just a matter of making a new bracket to replace the mount removed from under the engine.
Last edited by fzrtim on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

fzrtim
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Re: How to fit the 600 into the 3tj

Post by fzrtim » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:20 am

The electrics
Because the timing is different on the 600 motor to the 400 the 600 cdi has to be used. If you have a full doner bike it might be easier to us the loom and all the elecrics from it (as previousely mentioned the thundercat has a throttle position sensor).
If you havent got a doner bike then this could hike up the cost as all the electrics, clocks ect have to be bought.
I managed to graft the 600 cdi into the 400 loom and saved having to change all the other bits. Finding out which wire went where was a nightmare but in the end was worth it. To start with i could only get hold of a wiring diagram for the thundercat which is similar and managed to get the engine running but i had some spare wires and an irritating fault now known to the few as the tacho tango!
Armed with a fzr wiring diagram i found what the fault was and managed to figure out the remaining wires. The tacho tango turned out to be caused by the fuel sender unit not being connected.
The thundercat cdi looks almost the same as the fzr but has an extra plug for the throttle sensor. I used the cdi from the 4jh fzr600r as the engine was from that bike. The same cdi may or may not run the thundercat engine, i dont know as i havent fit one (but i suspect it will).
If you use the fzr600r loom you will have to modify it to connect to the 400s fuel pump and fuel sender.

To graft the 4jh fzr600 cdi to the 3tj 400 loom
First if not done so already remove/unplug the exup motor as this is no longer needed.
Next leaving as much cable as possible on the loom snip both the 4pin and 6 pin plug from the 400 loom and remove the cdi
Image
The 6pin and 8pin plugs from the 600 loom for the cdi need to be removed leaving as much cable on the plugs as possible. Thes cables can now be joined to the 400 loom as follows:-

8 pin plug on 600 cdi-400 loom
red/white-red/white (also joins to red/white on 6pin plug)(starter relay)
blue/red-black/blue (starting circuit cut off/fuel pump relay)
yellow/black-yellow/black (tacho)
blue/black-blue/yellow (main switch)
black/blue-white/black (pick up coil)
white/red-white/red (pick up coil)
green/white-2xgreen (fuel sender)
green/yellow- spare (fuel warning lamp- not fitted to 400 but could be!)
6 pin plug on 600 cdi-400 loom
red/white-red/white (joins to red/white on 8 pin plug)(starter relay)
orange-orange (coils)
black-black (ground)
grey-grey (coils)

Image
With this all conneted the engine should fire up!

Small warning. With the 600 cdi 400 loom ,when the ignition is turned on the oil light does not come on (as a bulb test) before the engine is started. The light will come on though if the oil level is low (providing the bulb is ok). Untill i have figured out a loom mod to overcome this small problem i recommend you check the oil regularly (as you should anyway). IF THE BULB IS BLOWN YOU COULD RUN OUT OF OIL WITH NO WARNING!
Also in modifying the loom the reserve switch becomes obselete. The engine does not run on 2 cylinders as the 400 does ,instead the rev counter dances to 8500 rpm 5 times then works as normal again to warn you the fuel level is low (either that or i have a fault with my fuel sender). If the rev counter constantly dances to 8500 you have a problem with the fuel level circuit.
Last edited by fzrtim on Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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